Transcript for
Thin Lei Win on Food Systems, Rice and Power in Southeast Asia
Jack Thompson
Welcome to Feed, a food systems podcast presented by Table. I'm your host today, Jack Thompson, standing in for Matthew Kessler while he’s on parental leave.
I’m speaking to Thin Wei Lin today, renowned food systems journalist for Lighthouse Reports, a non-profit investigative news outlet and author of Thin Ink, her fantastic weekly newsletter on food and climate, and where they meet.
Today we covered a lot of ground; Thin’s experience of growing up in Myanmar, it’s unique food culture and how that has shaped her career in food systems reporting.
Thin Lei Win
Myanmar, we are a nation obsessed with rice. Okay, so for example, when we meet, we would greet each other by asking, San sa pyi bli la, which literally translates as, “have you had rice?” So we don't ask how are you, we ask have you had rice?
Jack Thompson
As part of our newsletter series, exploring food system debates around the world, I also ask her about her experiences in South East Asia – a region she knows all too having lived in Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore and reported from many others.
Thin Lei Win
It's 11 countries and a region of what, 700 million people, right? And it's fascinating because you have countries of varying sizes and development levels and trajectories. And I think in this day and age.I know that the political winds are blowing in very different directions, but I seriously truly think you cannot just ignore what's happening in one corner of the world and think you'd be sort of immune from what's happening there.
Jack Thompson
Thin, where did it all begin, how did you get into food and climate journalism?
Thin Lei Win
In many ways I've always been obsessed with food ever since I was born and raised in Rangoon Yangon, which was the former capital of Myanmar. And I grew up in a household that sort of equates, food and eating with sort of community, with love, with sharing. So I was very fortunate to have very good memories around food, right? So that's from a personal perspective. But, Myanmar is, and especially when I was born, was an agrarian country. So farming, food production, agriculture was a very important part of society.
So in many ways, I guess I've always been interested in that topic or at least receptive towards it. But it wasn't actually really until 10 years ago when I was back home in Myanmar to set up an investigative news agency that sort of I had this what you would call a light bulb moment.
Jack Thompson
This moment came when Thin was working at the Thompson Reuters foundation covering humanitarian news like climate change, food security, women’s rights, and refugees and displacement.
Thin Lei Win
I was back home for the first time in many years and I was interviewing the then country director of the WFP, the World Food Program in Myanmar. And I was asking him questions around food insecurity and malnutrition, specifically why the numbers are still so high, right?
When Myanmar is a poor country, but has pretty much almost always been a food surplus country, specifically when it comes to cereals, grains, pulses, we've always exported, we've always produced more than we consume, right? Even during decades of military dictatorship. But it was, you know, during that conversation that, that I was like, of course, the diet that we've been having. Almost all our lives in Myanmar isn't nutritious because it was very much around white rice. It wasn't diverse enough. And the fact that malnutrition and food insecurity is really high in a lot of minority ethnic areas, not because of a problem with availability, but because of access or affordability. And I think that's when I really started to see food and climate issues not in isolation or not as response to to an emergency right whether it's a conflict or a cyclone but as a political economy problem right about all the who holds the power, who makes those policies you know who have the economic interests around how food is produced distributed and consumed not just in Myanmar but around the world so that that was the moment when I really became very, very interested in looking beyond just hunger and malnutrition.
Jack Thompson
So what I'm hearing is that: before you concentrated on reported on climate, you reported on food security and malnutrition, but really in this kind of interview, you saw them coalesce and actually seeing how they fit within that food systems and what, you know, kind of people term as this food systems approach. Is that right?
Thin Lei Win
Yeah, guess that was when I think I started to see, I guess the bigger picture. Not just looking at the production aspects of it or the consumption or the distribution, but seeing how all of it fit in and specifically who has the power and who makes decisions. And I know TABLE has been looking into all these power structures as well. I think unless we really look at that power imbalances and systemic inequalities, we're not going to change anything from whether it's just hunger and malnutrition to essentially shifting our food systems to become less destructive and more sustainable. And I think power is the basis of all of that.
Jack Thompson
So, this is something I think about in my own work as a journalist, like what makes someone who's a food reporter, a climate reporter, then what is a food systems reporter? Where do you start stories, I guess, is it power?
Thin Lei Win
I think power is definitely very important to look into. I think a lot of the times when we talk about either a food reporter or we talk about climate reporter, depending on the kind of newsroom that we're in, a lot of our work is reactive. We're responding to what's happening. And when we are doing reactive news reporting, it's very much based on what's happening right now, what needs to be done to change the situation, usually in the short term. And that's it. And we rarely get the opportunity to really delve deeper into the root causes. And I seriously think that when it comes to food systems, you know, power or the lack of it, who wields it, it's a big issue.
Jack Thompson
Sometimes I say, you know what I love and I think it's such a good way to show like food systems,”I'm like, I love a supply chain. I love a supply chain.” And it is like, if you say people are, “I look in supply chains” and that's often the basis of like my reporting is they're like, “wow, that's dry.” But it's our job to make that interesting and to show all the kind of dark places that never get light onto it really.
But I guess what I wanted to ask you was, you grew up in this agrarian place. What happens between growing up in this community where food and farming is a really important aspect and then your kind of transition to journalism and then rediscovering it. What was that like?
Thin Lei Win
The first part, just growing up, in many ways it's just as I guess I was just a consumer, right? I was part of it. I was in some ways very steeped in it, but I was also, you know, when I left Burma, I wasn't looking very much specifically into food systems issues. So it was, I guess it was a shallow understanding around, you know, what's happening around food systems in my own country. And, you know, being able to go back and look at it, I guess, slightly dispassionately and from a bit of a distance was really, really fascinating, because, Myanmar, we are a nation obsessed with rice. Okay, so for example, when we meet, we would greet each other by asking, San sa pyi bli la, which literally translates as, “have you had rice?” So we don't ask how are you, we ask have you had rice? Like I said, when I went back and look at some of those, even some of those, you know, traditions and cultural ways of seeing food and agriculture and farming policies that you realize how decades of focusing very much just you know, on agricultural policies and farming policies anchored on just a specific grain like rice, right? From everything from loans, infrastructure, extension services to farmers, you know, and at the expense of more nutrient dense foods, right? And that's how that is then reflected in the food insecurity and malnutrition figures.
Jack Thompson
So rice sits in the political and cultural centre of Myanmar. A country that chose at several turns to intensify its rice production, which Thin explains came at the expense of the nutrition of its people.
Thin Lei Win
And then you put on top of that, the fact that for a very long time, Myanmar was a military dictatorship that made political decisions on who has access to affordable food or not, who made decisions on infrastructure, made decisions on who gets subsidies and what kind of food does. And, you know, and then it was also a centrally planned economy, very inefficient. So you layer all of those on top of each other, and then you have a country with a lot of food insecurity and multiple burdens of malnutrition. And that's another thing that was really interesting when I went back was just not just the fact that there were people who were hungry and there were people who, know, particularly women who were anemic and children who were stunted, but also the fact that there was an increasing number of people who were becoming overweight, right? So there was all these multiple burdens of malnutrition. It was...It was fascinating as well as, I guess, in some ways concerning if that's the right word to see how you know how agricultural policies have created a population that is suffering multiple health problems as a result of you know of a very short-sighted farming and agriculture policies
Jack Thompson
I think it is really interesting. In West Africa, where I'm based, I'm based in Senegal and I travel in the region quite a lot and I've been looking at rice recently and I think it's so interesting that rice can often be a political project as well as a food security project and it's interesting what that comes at the expense of.
Thin Lei Win
Yes, yes, for sure. I think Myanmar, which used to be known as Burma, was decades ago known as the rice bowl of Southeast Asia. Right. So the successive governments, military governments, were just were just preoccupied with recapturing that glory. So, you know, like you said, it was as much a political project as a food security project.
Jack Thompson
I wanted to ask you as well, most of our listeners are based in the global north, in the UK and the US, in the Netherlands. And so what are the kind of interconnectivities, interdependencies with Southeast Asia? Kind of why, you know, Why should we, to be really frank, why should we care what happens in Southeast Asia?
Thin Lei Win
Well, mean, Southeast Asia is, guess, you know, if we loosely look at it from a geographical perspective, I think it's 11 countries and a region of what, nearly 700 million people, right? So it's a big, it's a big, big place, a lot of people. And, you know, it's fascinating because you have countries of varying sizes and development levels and trajectories. And I think in this day and age. I know that the political winds are blowing in very different directions, but I seriously truly think you cannot just ignore what's happening in one corner of the world and think you'd be sort of immune from what's happening there. Some countries in Southeast Asia are way ahead of its counterparts in the rest of the world. And some,I think it's very reflective of what's happening in many other developing regions around the world. And for example, even if you take just two countries, right, Indonesia and Malaysia.
I suspect that exports from these two countries, from their palm oil plantations, actually reach pretty much almost every continent on earth, right? The products made from them, the exports of it. So we're now talking about an extremely interconnected world where, produced from Southeast Asia reach the rest of the world and vice versa and whatever happens there should be of interest to anyone who's interested in food systems.
I mean, let me just give you an example. when I say countries of varying sizes and development trajectories, so Singapore is one of the richest countries in the world. It's first world, and they are very, very interested in making their food systems sort of what you call self-sufficient, right, or food sovereignty. And part of it is because it's a very small country and it is very much dependent on imports to feed its population, right? So they've been very, very, I guess, forward looking when it comes to investing in the latest food technology. So anybody that's really interested in cutting edge food technology and investing in the kind of stuff, Southeast Asia is a really interesting place. But then you also have, like I said, countries like Indonesia and Malaysia where there is so much palm oil plantations and there is a negative connotation, I guess in some ways, and reputation around deforestation.
And apart from, I think, Singapore and Brunei, the rest of Southeast Asian countries are still agrarian countries. They're still very much linked to the global supply chain and very, very import dependent and reliant. they're still trying to sort of find their feet when it comes to agricultural sustainability. I f we really want food systems that are fair, that are sustainable, that are healthy, we need to convince these countries and this region to come on board on all the discussions that we just can't assume that the global majority, the global north, can expect them to just fall in line.
Jack Thompson
Yeah, think, yeah, I think it's even if you just take palm oil in Southeast Asia, if you care about climate, you should care about Southeast Asia. If you care about biodiversity loss, you should care about Southeast Asia. If you care about ultra processed foods, you should care about Southeast Asia because it's, you know, the palm oil is the glue that holds it all together.
Also, just to go back to one of my favorite crops, I see rice from Vietnam all the time in Senegal. They're big exporters and like methane from rice is a huge issue. And so I think there are a number of complex food system issues that kind of link back to this region. But do you get the sense that it's maybe not kind of included the way that maybe Brazil and the Amazon or maybe places like the kind of big cereal bowls in central Europe are in global food system debates?
Thin Lei Win
Yes, I think so. I think you hit the nail on the head. think...I mean, I can only speculate as to why that is the case, right? But I do think that when we talk about global food systems, Southeast Asia gets forgotten in a way, maybe because, you know, maybe because it's not China or India, right? Which because of the geopolitics and just the size, the sheer size of the population, people are like, that's what's happening there. And maybe also because In some ways it is quite closed, right? We have a regional block, ASEAN, but if you look at the countries, the political system of countries in Southeast Asia, they're all very, very, very closed. Even the countries that you will see are democratic have a lot of issues around, you know, you know, the democratic governance.
Jack Thompson
And just to kind of like, I think it's unavoidable to not use broad brushes when we're talking about a total region in the food system debate. a caveat is that there's so much nuance, there's so much diversity kind of Vietnam to Singapore is comparing apples and pears really.
In my email exchanges to Thin before we sat down for this interview, I asked her if we could zoom into a particular debate in South East Asia. Thin suggested that land or the lack of it, is a common challenge across all 11 countries in transforming the region’s food system.
Thin Lei Win
I think one similarity that is pretty common across, you know, Southeast Asian countries, almost all of them, is the fact that there is widespread poverty among farmers, right? And part of the reason, not all, but part of it is access to land and how controversial this issue is still in many countries. There's so much competition for land. Whether you're an agrarian country or you're a developed country I mean one of the reasons why Singapore is so laser focused on food tech is because it doesn't have the land it needs to grow its own food. And then you have in other countries you have varying levels of conflict I would say around you know, land grabs and land use, right? So it ranges everything from, farmland expansion, particularly for cash crops like palm oil and rubber that then encroaches on land for food, right? Then you have a lot of big agri businesses that include countries like Cambodia, include countries like Thailand, Burma, where, you know, these agribusiness interests are very closely aligned with the political landed elite, right? And they control a lot of the market. And you've got land grabs, land appropriation, that lead to dispossession and exploitation of farmers.
Jack
It’s clear that Thin has spent a lot of time on the ground with communities who have issues accessing land, due to plantation style agriculture, from palm oil to sugar. Having spent time myself reporting on aggressive land grabs in West Africa, it can be hard to see agribusiness in a positive light. Thin suggests it’s a situation that’s getting worse, but there are reasons to be hopeful.
Thin Lei Win
It's also worth remembering that in a lot of Southeast Asian countries, not all, but a lot, we're still talking about small and medium sized farms that make up the vast majority of agriculture workforce, right? The dispossession, the competition over land is..getting, I would say it is actually, hasn't gotten better. It has in fact gotten worse, particularly I think because with the threat of climate change and the concern around global supply chains, people are trying to get access to as much land as possible. And some are looking at some of the countries in Southeast Asia, particularly in countries where you've got..I guess a deficit in democratic governance, right? That's going to be a massive challenge and barrier to transform food systems in these countries, particularly if you've got a small number of agribusinesses or owners that have access to a vast majority of the land and will be interested in focusing on either cash crops or monoculture or industrial scale agriculture, right? So, you've got massive tensions with people who are producing the food and the companies that have the resources and the political connections to...to control what's produced and how it's produced. We've seen investors from neighboring countries swooping into land in Burma, Myanmar, in East Timor, in Cambodia, in the Philippines. I mean, it's a recipe for communal conflict. It's a recipe for a continued focus on productivity versus nutrition versus environmental protection versus a more equitable access to land and livelihood and income.
So I see...Yeah, I see the competition for land and the lack of proper reform when it comes to access to land in a lot of Southeast Asian countries as one of the key barriers to food systems transformation.
Jack Thompson
Hmm. Well, yeah. Land is this kind of keystone issue. So you can see how it's a super important issue and is there attention on this? Is there a way forward?
Thin Lei Win
I mean, there's a lot of talk, right? There's a lot of talk. There is awareness because, let's say just as an example in the Philippines, the farmer movement and the land rights activists, they are very, very brave, despite the dangers and they are very vocal, you know, but... Again, we go back to literally right at the beginning, the political economy around all of this, right? Who has the power and who makes those decisions? And there is still that massive imbalance in terms of the will to change this. Because, I mean, of course, if you look at it dispassionately, I think… you know, it's so short sighted not to reform those policies or not to or to just assume that massive, you know, land appropriation. It's a good thing. I know that.
I know that sometimes some economists think, you know, efficiency, you know, versus, you know, whatever, and therefore it's much more efficient for a small number of owners to have vast quantities of land. But if we are, you know, we're talking about a region with the high population density where still a large part of the population still derives either the income or livelihood or is dependent on agriculture. I think it's extremely short-sighted not to say dangerous not to try and resolve the land issue but unfortunately like everywhere else in the world I do think the people who have the power to change are very much stuck in short-term benefits, right? Whether that is short term in the sense of their political cycle or short term in the sense of just, you know, over the next 10, 15 years, how much profit can I get from this versus over the course of next 50 years, this is probably going to have a massive impact on, you know, biodiversity and environmental destruction in this and therefore we will no longer even be able to continue growing what we grow. So there's a lot of talk, but I haven't seen the walk.
Jack Thompson
A question I'd like to finish with, what are you optimistic about in Southeast Asia? What gives you hope?
Thin Lei Win
Definitely not the government of Southeast Asia that gives me hope but I do think we have a sort of new generation of journalists of activists of even, I guess, farmers and civil society organizations that I have met over the past few years who are deeply engaged in these issues in a way that I have not seen in the past and despite all the challenges. you know, I'll use an example that I am most, I guess, familiar with. So Myanmar, there's currently a civil war going on, right? Because of a military coup in 2021. So it's in a bad way when, whichever way you look about it, whether you look at it, know, food systems from production aspect or, you know, from the outcome aspect in terms of nutrition and hunger. And yet, right, people, that I have spoken to, the younger generation of people who grew up in Myanmar, deeply care about fairness and equality, deeply care about the environment, deeply care about the biodiversity, and wants to build a country that is better than it has ever been. And I see the similarity, and again, this is super broke. brushstroke, but I see similarity at least in the younger generation of Thais that I have met in the same way that the younger generation of Indonesian and Filipino, know, journalists and activists that I have met. So it's a bit of a cliche, but I think, you know, I'm hopeful that the new generation has a better grasp on things than us or the older generation. That's usually what gives me hope. Every time I go back to the region and I meet people, I'm always inspired by their attitude, how despite all the challenges, they're just like, nah, we're just gonna keep doing it. We just have to do it. There is no alternative.
Jack Thompson
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's a great place to leave it. So thank you. Thank you, Thin. It's been great to talk to you and thanks for giving up your time and talking to us.
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please do tell a friend who might enjoy it. Rate it and review wherever you listen, and subscribe to our newsletter, fodder to explore the rest of our series on food system debates around the world, from West Africa to Latin America. The link is in the show notes too. Table is a collaboration between University of Oxford, Wageningen University, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, University of Los Andes and national, Autonomous University of Mexico. This episode was produced by Jack Thompson and Matthew Kessler, edited by Matthew Kessler. Special thanks to reviewers, Ruth Mattock and Jackie Turner and music by Blue Dot Sessions. Thank you and talk soon.