Matthew 00:01
Earlier this year, a group of students from Wageningen came to us with an idea. They were running an alternative protein hackathon, but with a twist. 

So picture 50 students in a room trying to reinvent the future of food. This time, they weren’t trying to recreate burgers or nuggets. The prompt instead was to actively avoid imitating meat.

Stacy 00:17
For many years, we were very focused on getting an identical sensory expression as meat. It's always just really helpful to shake that up a bit.

Matthew 00:30
I'm Matthew Kessler, host of Feed, a food systems podcast presented by Table.

Melania 00:35
And I'm Melania Zanforlin from the Wageningen Alternative Protein Project, called WAPP for short. WAPP is a student-led initiative that connects students and researchers with the alternative protein food industry.

Matthew 00:48
Together, we're bringing you a special episode that takes you behind the scenes of an alt-protein innovation hackathon. A collaboration between WAPP, WUR Student Challenges, and Kalsec.

Melania 01:01
This is the story of how a dish goes from a sketch on a whiteboard to a plate on campus, and what the journey tells us about the future of food.

Matthew 01:14
So, Melania, before we get into the chaos of the hackathon floor, can you tell me a little bit about why this event exists in the first place?

Melania 01:23
So a critique we always hear about the alternative protein sector is that vegan food is always trying to be something else and mimic food categories that already exist. For instance, a fake burger, a fake chicken nugget, or a fake egg. This standard expectation also creates a challenge for the food industry: by comparing a product to a meat-centered one, the bar is set quite high in terms of product complexity and flavor engineering.

Matthew 01:52
I’ve seen for decades, these companies are trying to recreate meat products, and some are getting pretty good. But you’re curious about a different kind of innovation.

Melania 02:03
That's exactly what we wondered at WAPP, and that's what inspired this hackathon. Instead of coming up with entirely new categories of food, we thought, why don't we try to provide something new, not with a sacrifice in taste, but with a shift in expectation?

Matthew 02:20
So, what were you hoping for in creating this hackathon?

Melania 02:24
We were trying to create a space where students could be creative but also use their science knowledge that they've earned here at Wageningen University. So combining food technology and food physics with creativity, and creating new dishes that don't exist yet.

Matthew 02:45
Awesome. And so to do that, you partnered with WUR Student Challenges and Kalsec. What were each of those groups offering?

Melania 02:53
WUR Student Challenges specializes in running different types of student-driven innovation events, which includes challenges and hackathons like ours, among many others. Kalsec is a company based in the U.S. that specifically focuses on food flavorings for alternative protein products, among other things. Their chefs and scientists helped us create this challenge, judge, and support the students.

Matthew 03:25
Great. So I'm basically going to hand the mic over to you, and I'm looking forward to hearing what these students create. Let's take a look inside.

Melania 03:43
We arrive in Plushouse Two. The room is filled with sticky notes, ingredient cards, and the low hum of 50 students locked in intense brainstorming. Whiteboards are covered in sketches of seaweed noodles, fermented bases, and new spice blends. The teams had just three hours to design a complete culinary concept. No meat copies allowed. Before the teams took the stage to pitch, they had to prove their concepts checked three main boxes. Creativity carried 40% of the score, rewarding teams that pushed beyond standard meat substitutes. Feasibility and storytelling made up 30% each, balancing kitchen realism with a compelling narrative and clear market fit. It was time for the pitches. 

Once the high-pressure presentations ended, I sat down with some of the participants to hear how the process felt from the inside.

Melania 04:46
How did you experience the hackathon today?

Student 1 04:46
It was very well organized. I had very good teammates as well, and at the end we all shared very interesting ideas, which enriched my perspective on alternative proteins as well.

Student 2 05:03
Yeah, it was a really nice experience for me. I've never had any competitions here before. It's totally nice, and I love the vibes and how people come together to work on their idea.

Melania 05:14
What did you find the most challenging part of the hackathon?

Student 3 05:18
I think it was about how we could utilize legume-based protein in our product.

Student 4 05:25
Also the functional characteristics of the materials. It's new for us, because we have to know characteristics of the product and translate that into the product we want to propose.

Melania 05:41
Out of dozens of creative concepts, three dishes stood out to the judges, earning a spot in the professional kitchen with the support of Kalsec.

Laurice 05:50
I think it was a great experience to see how students, the young generation, are looking at the food transition towards more plant-based.

Melania 05:59
Dr. Laurice Pouvreau is a Senior Protein Scientist at Wageningen University & Research. She is an expert in plant protein functionality.

Laurice 06:09
I discovered new things, new ingredients I'd never consumed before. It's also nice to see a group of international students come up with new dishes, mixing in their own food experiences from their countries. So I think it was a great experience.

Melania 06:28
You've already spent years studying plant protein functionality. What do you think the students understood or misunderstood about working with alternative proteins as ingredients?

Laurice 06:40
Maybe not misunderstood, but underestimated the challenge of working with plant proteins, in the sense that different spices or flavors are needed to match the taste and aroma of plant protein. I think there was some underestimation of that challenge on their side. I also think they overestimated the amount of protein they needed to put in the dish, because too high protein can come to its own challenges in making a tasty dish.

Melania 07:14
From your perspective, do you agree that there's a tension in the industry and in research between mimicking animal-based products and originality in alternative protein?

Laurice 07:27
I think as scientists who've worked in plant protein for so many years, I think we want to showcase the beauty of plant ingredients, so not only plant protein, but the whole things. And we'd really like to strive toward making original plant-based food that stands on its own. 

But what we see from industry is that their biggest market is trying to convince meat eaters or dairy eaters to eat more plant-based, and the general consensus on their side is that you need to mimic meat to do that, which I partially understand. Consumers find it very difficult to change what they're used to eating every day. So sometimes it's not a mismatch, it’s the consumer drives what the company ends up making.

Melania 08:21
What's a misconception about plant proteins that you wish more young innovators understood?

Laurice 08:28
What you hear is that plant proteins are less nutritious than animal protein, or less complete in amino acid composition, which is true. They are quite often deficient in some essential amino acids. But what the young generation, and people in general, need to think is that we are not only eating one single protein. It is always combined with other things. So if you combine bread with a plant-based meat, you will have a complete amino acid composition. Because one will compensate for the other. So I would like people to think more on the meal concept. And look at the nutrition of their meal, and not per ingredient. I think the other misconception that you hear sometimes is about ultra-processed food. Every food is processed. Dairy, meat, and plant-based food. It is necessary for ensuring the safety and the quality of our food. So I would like people not to associate plant-based food with ultra-processed, because it is not the case. It's just a different type of food. And people should just look at the nutrition of their food, and not of the process. Because the process does not make your food unhealthy.

Stacy 09:56
The energy in the room was really fantastic. And also super inspiring.

Melania 10:03
Dr. Stacy Pyett is a program manager at Wageningen University and Research, whose work has focused on the protein transition in the recent years.

Stacy 10:12
I think in this domain, in plant-based, it's been exciting the past few years. It's been a bit up and down in the energy and enthusiasm that you can feel when you get together with companies who are working in this domain, or the startups, or the investors. And for me, it's just fantastic to experience that that level of enthusiasm and energy is still there. And very much embedded in our student population.

Melania 10:41
What do students bring to the alternative protein conversation that the industry sometimes misses?

Stacy 10:47
I think that we have a tendency, and I say we, I mean also the researchers who have been in this domain for a very long time, to have a bit of lock-in in our thinking. I think that's present in researchers, and in industry, but also in academia. Who have just been in the field for, I'm not going to say too long, but for a while. We're sort of on a path, and we think we know what that path looks like. So for many years, for example, we were very focused on getting an identical sensory expression as meat. It's always just really helpful to shake that up a bit. You're seeing some new narratives, and some exciting narratives, coming up to the surface. The discussion around hybrids. So how can we combine meat and non-meat? And I thought, you know, in a hackathon, it was just really inspiring to not even try to get close to meat, but to just deliver a really great protein meal. And I think that that's an important contribution. Is to disrupt the thinking. So that we just get fresh impulses and fresh ideas from a new angle.

Melania 12:00
What surprised you about how teams approached the challenge?

Stacy 12:04
I just loved the fact that each of the teams had brought in their own background, their own cultural history. There were ingredients, there were food categories, that are just not directly on my radar. And I think that was also part of the enthusiasm. Was seeing the students introduce us to this new thing from their home country, or that they had, once that they were traveling. That was great.

Melania 12:31
Many ideas stood out, and many teams came up with original concepts. Three teams are selected to move on to the second phase of the hackathon, where the teams get to cook their innovative dishes. A week later, we join the top three teams at the cooking session in the Open Innovation Kitchen on the Wageningen campus. Stainless steel counters, industrial mixers, spice racks, and a team of professionals ready to help these teams make their ideas into reality, and iron out those final details. I'm not alone in organizing this event. Joining me in the kitchen today is Joachin, another board member of WAP, the Wageningen Alternative Protein Project.

Joachin 13:25
We are taking a look. Supervising. Seeing how everybody's doing.

Melania 13:30
When you see student concepts, what tells you a dish has real potential?

Joachin 13:33
I see potential when I see the students excited. When I see them going straight to work. And when I see the vision. You know, everybody knows what they're doing, and that's what to me is most exciting.

Melania 13:47
Stepping into the food innovation kitchen, we are met by the Kalsec team, who are helping turn the teams' ideas into dishes.

Andy 13:55
My name is Andy Bingham. I am chef and senior food application scientist at Kalsec Europe.

Raffaella 13:59
My name is Raffaella Inchingolo, and I am a lead food scientist at Kalsec Europe.

Andy 14:04
My role today is to support the student groups. Some tips and tricks and advice about, a, the equipment and the space, and b, how to use Kalsec products to brighten up, inspire, make a fun ingredient for the final competition.

Raffaella 14:24
My role is to support the students and help them to use Kalsec ingredients in the best way.

Melania 14:24
Do you think the future of plant-based cuisine lies in mimicking meat-based or animal-based products, or do you see it more as a standalone cuisine?

Andy 14:45
That's a nice question. I think, from a personal perspective, the quicker we move away from trying to mimic, in totality, animal kind of concepts. You know, let the ingredients stand alone by themselves. And just make sure that they've got good texture, flavor, and aroma. And then people will buy into those products more. I feel.

Melania 15:10
Before the judges made their final call, we had to see and smell the contenders' dishes. First up was Steamed Southeast Asian Express.

Student 4 15:19
Today we're cooking our noodle, our sea noodles. So basically, we're using spinach-blended noodles, without any flour. So basically it's just tapioca and chickpea.

Melania 15:34
And now we are cooking your dish. How does it smell like?

Student 4 15:37
Oh, it smells amazing.

Melania 15:40
I can smell a lot of garlic and sesame oil. It really smells like authentic food.

Student 4 15:45
Yeah, it blends all together. And it gives you the desire to eat.

Melania 15:50
Next was Team Satan Rolls.

Student 5 15:52
We tried three different tastes in this case. So we have a borek style. So the dough is spiced like a shawarma, and the filling is like a traditional borek, with a bit of lemon. We have a more Asian style filling, with the dough flavored with mushroom broth, and the filling is with miso, gochujang, carrots, and bell peppers. And we also have a sofrito style. Also the dough flavored with broth, and it's got tomato, onion, garlic, and lentils in there.

Melania 16:27
And then there was Team Cookies.

Student 1 16:30
We made golden pockets.

Student 6 16:32
Golden pockets are made with golden tofu skin. So the tofu skin is fried. And then inside of that we would have a filling made out of vegetables, a soy protein alternative as well, and a few seasonings. And yeah, they just get shallow fried.

Melania 16:48
After hours of testing, tasting, and refining, the dish of Team Cookies, the Golden Pockets, stood out.

Andy 16:56
It's great. Really, really nice little dish. I think, yeah, super balanced. All of the Asian flavors, and they work really well together. Not surprisingly, love the texture on the parcel. I think that's really, I love that innovation. I've never seen that before, so I really like that.

Raffaella 17:15
The texture is very interesting, and very balanced flavors. And the inside looks to me like scrambled eggs or something.

Laurice 17:25
So I like the texture of it. For me personally, I would like more spice. Yeah, maybe that's the one thing you could just do.

Andy 17:35
With a kick, right?

Laurice 17:36
Yeah, but I can imagine it's always difficult to balance. Because you could have been a little bolder.

Andy 17:41
Right?

Melania 17:42
While the judges look at the feasibility and the branding, there's another layer to this challenge. The physics of the food itself. I sat down with Guido Sala, who teaches molecular gastronomy here at Wageningen University, to ask about the leap from a good idea to a good bite.

Stacy 09:56
The energy in the room was really fantastic, and also super inspiring.

Melania 10:03
Dr. Stacy Pyett is Program Manager at Wageningen University & Research, whose work has focused on the protein transition in recent years.

Stacy 10:12
I think in this domain, in plant-based, it's been an exciting few years, a bit up and down in the energy and enthusiasm you feel when you get together with the companies, startups, or with investors. For me, it's fantastic to see that level of enthusiasm and energy is still there, and very much embedded in our student population.

Melania 10:41
What do students bring to the alternative protein conversation that the industry sometimes misses?

Stacy 10:47
I think we have a tendency, and when I say “we”, I include the researchers who've been in this domain for a long time, have a tendency toward lock-in in our thinking. That's present in researchers, in industry, and in academia - I’m not going to say too long, but for awhile. When you've been in the field for a while, you're sort of on a path, and you think you know what that path looks like. For many years, for example, we were very focused on getting an identical sensory expression to meat, it's really helpful to shake that up a bit. You're seeing some new and exciting narratives coming up now, like the discussion around hybrids: how can we combine meat and non-meat? In a hackathon, I found it really inspiring to not even try to get close to meat, but to just deliver a really great protein meal. I think that's an important contribution, to disrupt the thinking so we get fresh impulses and fresh ideas from a new angle.

Melania 12:00
What surprised you about how teams approached the challenge?

Stacy 12:04
I just loved the fact that each team brought in their own background, their owncultural history. There were ingredients and food categories that just aren't directly on my radar, and I think that was part of the enthusiasm, seeing the students introduce us to something new from their home country, or they had once when they were traveling. That was great.

Melania 12:31
Many ideas stood out, and many teams came up with original concepts. Three teams were selected to move on to the second phase of the hackathon, where they'd get to cook their innovative dishes. 

A week later, we joined the top three teams at the cooking session in the Open Innovation Kitchen on the Wageningen campus. Stainless steel counters, industrial mixers, spice racks, and a team of professionals ready to help these teams make their ideas into reality and iron out those final details. 

I'm not alone in organizing this event, joining me in the kitchen today is Joachin Fogel another board member of WAPP, the Wageningen Alternative Protein Project.

Joachin 13:25
We're taking a look, supervising, seeing how everybody's doing.

Melania 13:30
When you see a student concept, what tells you a dish has real potential?

Joachin 13:33
I see potential when I see the students excited, when I see them going straight to work, and when I see the vision, you know. I see everybody knowing what they're doing. That's what's most exciting to me.

Melania 13:47
Stepping into the food innovation kitchen, we're met by the Kalsec team, who are helping turn the teams' ideas into dishes.

Andy 13:55
My name is Andy Bingham. I am chef and Senior Scientist at Kalsec Europe.

Raffaella 13:59
My name is Raffaella Inchingolo, and I am a operation manager at Kalsec Europe.

Andy 14:04
My role today is to support the student groups with some tips and tricks and advice — a) about the equipment and the space, and b) how to use Kalsec products to brighten things up, inspire, and make a fun ingredient for the final competition.

Raffaella 14:24
My role is to support the students and help them use Kalsec ingredients in the best way.

Melania 14:24
Do you think the future of plant-based cuisine lies in mimicking meat-based or animal-based products, or do you see it more as a standalone cuisine?

Andy 14:45
That's a nice question. I think from a personal perspective, I think the quicker we move away from trying to mimic animal-based concepts in totality — and instead let the ingredients stand alone, making sure they've got good texture, flavor, and aroma — the more people will buy into those products. I feel that's the direction.

Melania 15:10
Before the judges made their final call, we had to see and smell the contenders' dishes. First up was team Southeastern Express.

Student 4 15:19
Today we're cooking our sea noodles — basically spinach-blended noodles without any flour. It's just tapioca and chickpea.

Melania 15:34
And now we're cooking your dish. How does it smell?

Student 4 15:37
Oh, it smells amazing.

Melania 15:40
I can smell a lot of garlic and sesame oil. It really smells like authentic food.

Student 4 15:45
Yeah, it all blends together — it gives you the desire to eat it.

Melania 15:50
Next was Team Satan Rolls.

Student 5 15:52
We tried three different flavors for this one. We have a börek style — the dough is spiced like a shawarma, and the filling is a traditional börek filling with a bit of lemon. We have a more Asian-style filling, with the dough flavored with mushroom broth and the filling made with miso, gochujang, carrots, and bell peppers. And we have a sofrito style — the dough is also flavored with broth, and it's got tomato, onion, garlic, and lentils in it.

Melania 16:27
And then there was Team Cookies.

Student 1 16:30
We made Golden Pockets.

Student 6 16:32
Golden Pockets are made with golden tofu skin — the tofu skin is fried, and inside there's a filling made of vegetables, a soy protein alternative, and a few seasonings. Then they're shallow-fried.

Melania 16:48
After hours of testing, tasting, and refining, the dish from Team Cookies, the Golden Pockets, stood out.

Andy 16:56
It's great — really, really nice little dish. I think it's super balanced. All of the Asian flavors work really well together. Not surprisingly, I love the texture on the parcel — that's really nice innovation, I've never seen that before, so I really like that.

Raffaella 17:15
The texture is very interesting and the flavors are very balanced, and the inside looks to me like scrambled eggs or something.

Laurice 17:25
I like the texture of it. Personally, I'd like a bit more spice — maybe that's the one thing.

Andy 17:35
With a kick, right?

Laurice 17:36
Yeah, but I can imagine it's always difficult to balance, because it could have been a little bolder.

Andy 17:41
Right.

Melania 17:42
While the judges look at the feasibility and the branding, there's another layer to this challenge. The physics of the food itself. I sat down with Guido Sala, who teaches molecular gastronomy here at Wageningen University, to ask about the leap from a good idea to a good bite.

Guido 18:00
Here at Food Physics, we want to tackle specific issues of these developments. So, for example, if you want to develop plant-based cheese, you will be confronted with the fact that if you make such a cheese with proteins from soy or from pea, the cheese will not melt. So we try to understand the physical issues behind the fact that the product is not melting. So we mainly focus on very specific issues of the whole trajectory to go to a final product. Starting point is always a very well recognized problem of new food products. Sometimes the issue identified by the industry, sometimes it's a very well-known issue also in academic environment. Yeah, so we don't start from the idea of developing a specific product.

Melania 18:59
We've seen an incredible amount of innovation lately aimed at perfectly mimicking meat, which I think is something that your group is working on as well.

Guido 19:08
Yes.

Melania 19:09
And honestly, the tech is getting really good. But as we saw with the students at the hackathon, there is a push to move beyond fake burgers. From your perspective, do you think the future of the industry lies in perfecting these fakes, or are we actually witnessing the birth of an entirely new culinary identity for plant-based foods?

Guido 19:34
Yeah, the question is rather complex. Because one thing is the future of the industry, and one thing is the development of sustainable food in general. The industry is, of course, trying to diversify their portfolio. Principally, we see that for meat imitation products, the sales have reached a kind of plateau. Kind of ceiling. So then, of course, the industry wants to diversify. To have new ideas, to come up with new products. But personally, I think that in order to go in the direction of more sustainable nutrition, we don't necessarily need new products. We can just use the natural resources we have. So all the legumes, all the vegetable crops we already have. And combine them in new recipes. Which is also a little bit what the challenge of the hackathon was.

Melania 20:29
Talking more about the hackathon. When the teams move from the hackathon floor, so the ideation part, to the test kitchen, they start hitting the physical limits of their ingredients. In your experience, when you're trying to get these products just right, so that a consumer actually enjoys the bite, what is the harder hurdle to clear?

Guido 20:50
Well, it's exactly what we do, or what we try to do here at Food Physics. We try to understand the link between the functionality of ingredients and the behavior of the final product, via the study of the structure, or the microstructure, of a product. So, for example, if you use animal proteins to make specific products like cheese, we know that the functionality of the protein is ideal. Because these products have existed for millennia. They've been there for millennia, and we know, as humans, very well how to make them. But if you want to make cheese starting from soy, then you are confronted with the fact that the protein is not doing what you want. Just because it's a very different protein compared to casein from milk, for example. So then, what we try to understand here is how to engineer a texture like that of cheese, but then starting from different ingredients. Which means that you have to understand, for example, how the soy protein, or the pea protein, or the fava bean protein, can be aggregated. Or where they can interact with fat, for example. In such a way that, even though the structure is different from that of the original animal product, you obtain a similar textural effect in the mouth.

Melania 22:12
Is the texture the final frontier that your work is struggling with, or is it ultimately all about the flavor?

Guido 22:20
Well, the flavor is something studied by other colleagues. So here at Food Physics, we are not very good chemists. We know very little about flavor. And yeah, this is a little bit the effect of the specialization in academia. So here at Food Physics, we look mainly at the physical behavior of food ingredients. And at food chemistry, they are more focusing on flavor, the taste, and what kind of chemical components of a food can be used to control those properties.

Melania 22:55
How did you experience the hackathon? So you were there for almost the entire afternoon.

Guido 23:01
Yes, it was a very, very stimulating experience. I was impressed by how efficient the students were in translating the initial ideas into a very nice presentation. A very nice speech at the end. And I was also surprised by the creativity of all the teams. It was very nice to be there.

Melania 23:23
But the ultimate test isn't in the lab. It's in the hands of hungry students. Fast forward to the student kitchen corner at Aurora, a building at Wageningen University. The golden pockets are finally on the menu. It's lunchtime in the Wageningen University canteen. Trays clatter, students chat, and the winning dish is being served for the first time. We're curious to see the students' reaction to the dish they've been served.

Student 7 23:55
I like the texture, and the inside is only tofu and tomato, and it's a bit sour. Yeah, really like the taste.

Melania 24:10
So you know tofu skin, but you never tried it this way?

Student 7 24:13
Yeah, it’s is my first time I tried this kind of dish. So it's my first time, and it's pretty good.

Student 8 24:19
It's not my first time trying tofu skin, but with this way of cooking, it's a very new way for me to consume tofu skin. It's very nice, very chewy, and the flavor inside is very juicy as well. So, yeah, I very much prefer this.

Melania 24:34
Would you be interested in trying these kind of plant-based dishes on campus if they provided them more?

Student 8 24:40
Of course, I think it will be a very new way to consume plant-based protein products, in a different form as well. And with the shape and the size of this, I think it will be very popular as well.

Matthew 25:05
So we're joined back in the studio with Melania and Joachin. We followed these students from a frenetic afternoon with a bunch of sticky notes on the wall, to a professional innovation lab, and finally we ended up in the dining hall. So looking back, Joachin, did the students deliver what you were looking for?

Joachin 25:27
Absolutely. I think the students were engaged. They were creative. The energy in the room, in every room, from the kitchen to the sticky-note-filled room, as you mentioned, was really electric.

Melania 25:46
Yeah, it was amazing to go through all the steps of this hackathon together with Joachin, and host this event for the very first time for our association. And when we were in the kitchen, really had the impression we were in a kind of cooking show. Because of the tension I felt in the room. So overall, it was an amazing experience.

Matthew 26:09
So Joachin, you're a student leader. You know, representing the next generation of people who'll be shaping the future of food. How do you think your generation thinks differently compared to, say, some of the industry giants?

Joachin 26:25
I think the key that we saw, or at least that I experienced in this hackathon, was really the playfulness with which the students interacted with food. For example, looking to one of the dishes that to me stuck the most, was savory filled mochi. And these ideas of blending cross-cultural experiences, that I think is very emblematic of what you get within a student campus. Where you have a lot of different cultures merging together, and blending together, and you really get something that is very different. I think also the advantage of having this hackathon is that we are able to, thanks to the help of ADM, who allowed us to use some of their more high-tech ingredients, we're able to get behind those walled gardens of company research and B2B ingredients that often you don't get to play with. 

And I think that playfulness, that lack of fear of failure, and that really taking the challenge on to create something new and different, is something that I think is special about the student perspective, that is not present in industry. Blending ingredients, blending cultures, and really creating a dish that really felt emblematic of the student experience.

Matthew 27:40
Yeah, it's a nice way of putting it. It's like there's both the literal food ingredients that are made accessible, but also the ingredients. It's a good recipe for innovation.

Joachin 27:51
For sure.

Matthew 27:52
So WAPP's goal, as you put it, is to bridge the gap between academia and the protein transition. Do you think the winning dish, the golden pocket, does more to convince people to eat plant-rich diets than a scientific paper does?

Joachin 28:07
As much as I'd love to say yes, I also don't want to overstate the importance of an event like this. Of course, I hope that is the truth. But I do think that it's important for people to be able to see, touch, and feel the protein transition, in a way more tangible way than reading it. But what I do think is great about golden pockets, is that it argues for itself. It doesn't need to rely on any external argument of why you should eat it. It's a great tasting dish. It has unique new texture, and a blend of flavors. If plant-based was never part of the explanation of this dish, it would still be a great dish. And I think a lot of people would still eat it, even if meat is part of their diet 99% of the time.

Melania 29:32
Thank you to, Wageningen Student Challenges, Wageningen University and Kalsec, for making this possible. And thank you to every student who dared to imagine something new.

Matthew 29:43
From Table, I'm Matthew Kessler.

Melania 29:46
And from Wageningen University and WAPP, I'm Melania.

Joachin 29:49
And I'm Joachin. Thanks for listening.

Matthew 28:59
Enjoyed the episode? Give us a review on apple podcast or whatever platform you listen. 

Or share your comments and feedback with us directly by sending us an email to podcast@tabledebates.org 

Transcripts, resources, guest bios – are all on our website, tabledebates.org

TABLE is a collaboration of U Oxford, SLU, WUR, UniAndes and UNAM. 

This episode was edited and produced by Melania Zanforlin and Matthew Kessler. Music by Blue dot sessions. 

We’ve got an exciting mini-series and a longer series in the works. Talk to you soon.